Research

[REALMACTAVISH]

ITS TIME TO TAKE OUT THE HEAT FROM THIS FORUM; ITS PREDICTABLE REALLY,TRADITIONALLY WE'RE FIGHTERS AND RIGHTERS OF WRONGS AND WE'VE RESPONDED TO MISREPRESENTATION AND FALSEHOODS. LETS CALM DOWN NOW. THERES A LOT MORE TO COME AND SOME OF IT WILL BE AWE INSPIRING AND WILL EFFECTIVELY DO WHATS NEEDED TO BE DONE.
:rolleyes: AS YOU WILL HAVE GATHERED IM IN THE ENVIABLE LOCATION- IN SITU IN OUR HOMELAND.' GOD MADE EDEN AND THEY CALLED IT ARGYLL' AS THEY SAY HERE. I SPEND MY SPARE TIME RESEARCHING AND CAN BE OFTEN SEEN SCRAPING MOSS FROM GRAVESTONES OR PESTERING CURATES TO DIG OUT RECORDS.
IF I CAN OFFER ANY HELP IN FAMILY RESEARCH OR OTHER MATTERS; I'LL KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR YOU.MY PC SKILLS ARE NEW AND IM A TECHNOPHOBE BUT I'LL DO WHAT I CAN. IF ANYONE COMES OVER AND I'M FREE ;I'D BE HAPPY TO SHOW YOU ROUND. I ALWAYS WEAR OUR KILTS SO LOOK THE PART.

[Truth Seeker]

Hi real MacTavish -

May have a chance to take you up on that. A friend and I are hoping to travel to Scotland and England in the spring or fall of 2007. We thought maybe we would rent a self-catering cottage in the off season. Is that a good move?

TS

[REALMACTAVISH]

IT CAN BE EXPENSIVE BY G B STANDARDS BUT; IF YOU DESIRE COMFORT ITS OK. I DO KNOW A VERY GOOD PLACE IN TARBERT- 30 MINS SOUTH OF DUNARDRY THAT I CAN PUT YOU ONTO. THERE ARE SOME VERY GOOD HOTEL DEALS THOUGH WITH MEALS INCLUDED; I HAVE ONE IN MIND ON BANKS OF LOCH LOMOND WHICH IS A GOOD CENTRAL LOCATION TO TOUR. IF IM FREE I'LL BE GLAD TO SHOW YOU ROUND...

[Truth Seeker]

Sounds like a deal! I'll let you know as plans move forward.

TS

[cathy]

Truth Seeker, consider going in July of 2007????????

Or else I can get with Migovie and change our plans. I REALLY want to make it back! Can't wait for a reunion in the pub in Dores!!!

Cathy

[REALMACTAVISH]

well the cottage in mind would cost ?3-4oo for 7 days but its huge and sleeps about 8 ; it has a huge kitchen and lounges and its on the lochside. its rather posh yet arty close to shops ect. i know of it cos brother in law and family stayed there last year. we visited and could not believe what a gem it is.

[migovie]

IM THERE...count me in and i would be proud to meet with you . Ill bring some very readable documents and paperwork that we can all share over dinner. These papers and documents prove yet again the mactavish history as written at the moment is totally incorrect.
heres some of the items discovered.
1..lachlan was well meaning ..BUT broke...he could not afford to re purchase dunardry yet had signed a deal saying he would do so. Malcolm was concerned that lachlan would not be able to pay
2...letter exists that states that poor lachlan would never have been able to meet his financial part of the repurchase even if his health had been good (written by maolcolm and he is upset over lachlans situation more than angered that his freind lachlan had let him down terribly
3...lachlan was very aware that by heir his sons would inherit this promissory debt to malcom (around 1600 pounds )
4..lachlan needed to ensure his death would not leave his heirs and sons in debt.
5...simon mactvaish arrived with his own reasons for bailing lachlan out ..and lachlan jumped at the propsal.
6..lachlans son and heir sherrif dugald relinquished his rights to inherit the dunardry armatures and lands
7..sherrif dugalds own letter states simon mact paid sherrif dugald IN FULL for dunardry.? unusual cos sherrif dugald didnt own dunardry so it was a "paper shuffle" from serrif dugald "right to inherit " and sherrif dugald had already inherited his dads promissoru note to pay malcolm...
8...sherrif dugald was broke too...i have letters that prove he had a debt going back 5 years and had been unable to make ANY payment on it.this debt was only 500 pounds and was eventually repaid by his son and heir william
9...sherrif dugald was a "part time" sherrif substititute " and this along with his bad health ( clots in the right leg) give reason for sherrif dugald admission he may have to sell kilchrist to repay debts.
there are around another 90 items that directly contadict the present history and story told by mactavish regarding lachlans affairs and his sons.
that along with the douments that prove simon mactavish was the last chief and this right was inherited by BOTH his sons.
so the mactavish history is recorded terribly wrong at the moment which is something i cannot remotley undertsand as ALL these douments that have been viewed by me are available to the presnet clan senachie patrick thompson who must have read them yet chose to write a different fact .?

[REALMACTAVISH]

i too have some docs here migovie that compliment what youre saying; the dunardry people were in deep debt and at the endof a steady decline.Dugald's wifes father, the edinburgh minister,did what he could to bail them out and also lifelong friends campbell of auchinbreck was owed a fortune by todays standards.

incidentally-i havedugalds - death certificate he died from apoplexy whatever that is.....

[Truth Seeker]

Truth Seeker, consider going in July of 2007????????

Or else I can get with Migovie and change our plans. I REALLY want to make it back! Can't wait for a reunion in the pub in Dores!!!

Cathy

Hi Cathy - no way I could afford to go in July 2007 at the height of the tourist season. :( What about spring or fall???? before rates go up or after they drop???
(airplane and cottages) :unsure:

Let me know if this might be possible.

GREAT info posted my migovie and I would love to sit around a table and chew the "family." :D

TS

[Truth Seeker]

incidentally-i havedugalds - death certificate he died from apoplexy whatever that is.....

You might want to offer that to the Dunardry Heritage people and see if they would post it? :)

TS

[migovie]

apoplexy (im very amatuer here) but its a stroke or bleeding of an organ ...could have been heart but more likely brain haemorage due to pressures on arteries due to sherrif dugalds clots. hed apparantly suffered from leg clot for over 5 years and had to spend most of his waking hours with his leg elevated to relive the pain . and sadly was unable to work hardly at all for the last 5 years of his life >
my dad suffered the same fate at age 40 ys had clots right leg and synthetic arteries put in (one of the first to get such surgery ) he was doing rermarkably well but cancer got him finally at age 60. His father died of brain haemorage at 52 ys (apoplexy) and his father died of brain tumour > Bad luck draw of the family genes i think eh.
Sherrif dugalds health im afraid i dont have mediacl proof i simply have it written by sherrif dugalds own hand. Good enuf for this boy. Should be good enuf for patrick .? So mactavish history should really tell that story of sherrif dugald ...again he meant well but ill health meant little work . and debt was mounting. He had exhausted family and friends to borrow from and letters show he was in the end pleading for more money and hoping his word was good. His father in law wanted no part of promices. He wanted simply to be paid and had to wait well over 5 years and william still argued the amount of compund interest charged . shows everyone was struggling in scotalnd at that time eh...and does show sherrif dugald wasnt a wealthy succesfull lawyer and certainly had plaenty of time available whilst at home with his leg raised to aplly for titles...5 YEARS IN FACT.

[REALMACTAVISH]

its my opinion that the gathering should be off season.it suits the pocket and we'll have more money for whisky!
i can help with accomodation finding this end- the cottage i mentioned was actually ?3oo for 10 days in the season so should be cheaper off season.


as to suggestion of giving death cert to DHA; i will once everything is settled.

[migovie]

okee dokey then .Im still there. last visit i met a very jovial local who brewed his own family whiskey . I was reluctant to give it a nite as he was very worse for wear ( i mean a lifetime of wear not just the nite we spoke).
Some other truely remakable stories were shared at the dores inn .
Was told how the level of loch ness jumped over 6 foot generations ago after an earthquake in france.
How they engineerd the power turbine system which was drilled thru rock down to loch ness and the many many lives lost during that construction. The water begins its fall via loch mhor (adjacent to garthbeg/migovie) and thats why the original loch has changed due to this project. The water falls thru these man made shafts and runs the turbines.
A very funny story of one of the clans preparing battle for culloden but that families pre fight drinks had got way out of hand so when they awoke and dragged themsleves finally to the field they were too late...
Interesting tales re culloden from differnet families that have legend of the reality of the bitterness of the division created by the battle that in fact some families were split and so divided that brother fought against brother in the battle .. Mustve been terrible.
must tell brielfy of funny story. Adfter a great nite of too little eating and much too much drinkin we left the dores inn after a few late ones with the owner .i decided to pop up a few side streets to follow some new leads given me at the pub re mactavish sites of interest in the area. Unfortunateley a police car had notcied me driving very slowly in the town at 1 in the morning so pulled me over.
When asked what i was doing i replied with the obvious. "im doing some family research for my ancestors i am a mactavish."
they both laughed but then the police officer sternly said " son . i suggest you try the cemetery then...get back to your hotel " then we both laughed and laughed.

[migovie]

NESSIE....well of course i questioned this one...and who better to ask than the locals . and of course the legendary nessie hunter.Very strange set of events ill quickly share. When first discussed noone parted with a great deal and all had "well prepared little comments that they obviously had told tourists for ages"I sat with the locals for about 4 hours and shared many stories and questions. After they became more at ease some very different stories re nessie came forth. they were reluctantly told and many of the other locals shared stories too but were very embarrassed and cautious with the tales. i did notice that others in the pub where even more interested in the story than myslef and the look on their faces showed they had not had that detail before. One person who had kept silent finally said " yes my mum was laying on the shore reading with my sister when a huge splash drenched them and their book. They saw a dark outlined creature , huge, gliding away from the shore. and my mum and sister ran home wide eyed and out of breath but never spoke of the incident for years. They wanted it kept quiet fearing redicule"....
point of this is. you really benefit from spending that little extra time with the locals cos they are often reluctant to part with such info until they get to know you and realise you are worth telling the story to. Had a similar situation in loch gilphead too....but thats another story ...oh...maybe just quickly ...one funny ...
a couple of real old local ladys at the kilmartin cemeterycleaning the headstones lovingly i asked for any mactavish leads or stories. ( they were in their 80s. ).one lady said shed only known a couple of mactavish in her lifetime and asked her sister about the mactavish they went to school with.She had no recall then said "oh wasnt he that painter in loch gilphead" ..i thought 'WONDERFULL" i must buy one of his paintings to take away....the elder sister said " no he painted fences not pictures." ...so spose never make hasty judgements is that lesson.

[Truth Seeker]

Off season is far more possible for me! Yay!

Not saying that it's guaranteed that I'll make it, but I'm saving up already. :D

Keep up all the discussions - I'm learning loads. Just busy, so I can't post much.

T.S.

[REALMACTAVISH]

I OFFICIALLY SUGGEST WE MAKE OUR MEETING LATE SEPTEMBER 2007. ITS MUCH CHEAPER/ LESS BUSY/STILL NOT TOO COLD.AND THE WAY CLIMATE CHANGE IS OCCURING-ITS 95 DEGREES AT MOMENT!- IT COULD BE PLEASANT

[rhona]

see ya there Real Mac!
mine's is a wimpy Bailies----but then I am a girlie!

[Truth Seeker]

We'll give it our best shots!

T.S.

[migovie]

okee dokey then too....and oh oh ...my birthday falls in september too....could be dangerous that one....cheers to you all ...and rhona ...keep an eye out shortly for the clare constant ...youl LOVE it....one question youll ask immendiately is why and how can patrick thomspon make comment (as he is doing now) regarding the contents of a document he hasnt viewed....this document quite simply FOREVER cuts out dunardry mactavish rights to dunardry titles (armiges/armatures) is the wording used actually...
paperwork also to be provided re edward dugald viwing this document and having its legality explained in depth...then he still aproaches lyons with a request to be chief ....and the document "disppeared" from the office hmmmm...LUCKILY an astute mactavish had already obtained an "authenticated copy" ...

[Truth Seeker]

Oh my! I mean, oh my! :o

So, this document could change WHO the chief of the clan is? Do I understand this right?

OMG. No wonder Patrick and Patricia and all are working so hard to convince everyone that Steven should be held as near god - so no one would dare question his chiefly rights but would sneer at anything we said as sour grapes or just that troublesome bunch. We've already seen our own tossed out for absolutely nothing other than fear/mistrust/sheer hatefulness/ego on their part. What will they do to stop research on something like this? Will they suddenly produce some sort of supposed proof that hasn't been seen before?

Well, if there is a document and it says Dugald's line is not the chiefly line, I say the current chief should GO and immediately. It would be the honorable thing to do. It isn't his fault if it was his father's doing. But then, from reading both the mactavish.org (DHA) site and the clanmactavish.org (Steven's group) sites, he doesn't seem to be a man of honor so I won't hold my breath. What a shake up this could cause across a number of clans. Oh my. Interesting, though.

I just can't get over this. Has this happened in any other clan that you know of?

T.S.

[rhona]

Im interested to know what year it was that Dugald was granted his"title"???
Its never pleasant watching the mightyfall-----but deception and manipulation really makes me mad!
'Hope we can CELEBRATE THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE with bells on next September-as well as all the birthdays of our noble warriors of course!!

[migovie]

theres some strange and nasty stuff been goin on with this all ...
take a good read of simon mactavish will....youll see a man that is unquestionably rich. with a great heart and generous nature. youll see simon make very clear instructions regarding the lands of dunardry and the titles of the same ( proof exists that simon was "passed" the chiefly titles of dunardry )
the most blatantly obvious facts of simons will is his very clear attempts to die as a man 'at ease" with all his past...simon makes EVERY attempt to rectify any injustices thru his business dealings and even gives money back to a man simon beleives was wronged in a court case simon won....simon was a dying man clearing his concience....in EVERY way possible ...and infact he gives money to relatives not seen or known of...he gives money to friends...he cancels debts owing him by friends ...
BUT HE DIES 100 % HAPPY WITH THE TITLES AND LANDS OF DUNARDRY " TO REMAIN WITHIN HIS FAMILY FOREVER"
simon obviously had NO intention of any possibilty that the lands of dunardry would be sold or lost from his family ,,, so that is the reason he makes mention of the lands and titles to remain together and (of course) gives explanation for his DEMAND that in the event the dunardry lands and titles were inherited by someone other than a mactavish ( namely the macgillivray nephews he mentioned in his will ) BUT SHOULD THIS STRNAGE EVENT OCCUR.....SIMON DEMANDS THAT PERSON CHANGE HIS NAME TO MACTAVISH....of course this would NEVER be a consideration if that person was simply inheriting dunardry lands...its ONLY a concern to simon because he BELIVED the mactavish arms/titles of dunardry were to go hand in hand with the ownership of the lands......as per his requests....and this was a simple ancient custom......a chief in ancient times was simply A LANDOWNER...or laird....as such that family had power of military demands over tenants etc...
just as an example ...with simon mactavish as "laird of dunardry" or "owner of dunardry" in 1797.....had lachlan mactavish been actaully still living on those lands and paying rent to simon....had simon had any reason to enter battle he (as land owner) would have EVERY right to request lachlan mactavish family fight for him...in this case WHO WOULD BE CHIEF EH......THE LAND OWNER OF DUNARDRY OF COURSE......and the greatest,,, exception to this ownership by simon when compared to malcolm etc ,,,IS THAT SIMON WAS A MACTAVISH ...SO HAD FIRST CALL ON ALL MACTAVISH LIVING ON HIS LANDS ...BY BIRHTRIGHT AND NAME.....THEY ALL HAD TO LOOK TO SIMON AS LAIRD OF THE LANDS AS THEIR CHIEF.....to suggest anything else is to disregard scottsih customs or somehow follishly compare the ownership to "todays land ownrship "...IT ACTUALLY IS QUITE AN UNSUAUL EVENT FOR ANCIENT CLAN LANDS TO BE SOLD TO ANOTHER CLAN MEMBER OF THE SAME NAME.....LANDS WERE USUALYY TAKEN BY OTHER CHIEFS ....so we cannot compare land transactions with other clans ...we can only undertsand the complexity of mactavish dunardry lands being owned again by a mactavish...and that aquistion of the ancient mactavish lands must have carried with it the demand for the right for the new mactavish owner to be considered 'head of the family" .....OF COURSE IT WOULD BE DONE....AND MORE IMPORTANTANTLY....OF COURSE SIMON WOULD DEMAND IT ....

[Truth Seeker]

Migovie and Rhona -

Thank you so much for all the information and background on Scottish custom/law. It does simply appear then that IF the Clare Constat exists and says the title transferred away from the Dunardry line then it should be restored to the rightful line. If there is no legitimate heir there, then I assume the clan would be without a chief and would be maintained by societies as other chiefless clans. Right?

Still, quit a shakeup could be coming and they won't take it lying down.

I spoke with my cousin today and she agreed that late September 2007 sound like a great time for a trip to Scotland. The major concern now is fuel prices for airline tickets and car rentals. But we're planning on it! :D

T.S.

[rhona]

Thats very sweet of you to include me there TS but to be honest, I havent contributed a tenth as much vital detail as Cathy ,Migovie and Real Mac----but the truth will out very soon and altho I may personally prefer a cosy co-operative----there are many out there who are most certainly descended from the Garthbeg line who may quite rightly wish to state their interest in any future claims to the chiefly titles.

[migovie]

dont sell yaslef short by your "mactavish modesty" its an inherit deficiancy in us all
ONLY overcome by our "mactavish willingness for justice and family unity."
Rhona your heart is in the right place ...and as such you have contributed 150%
and your "heart" has been the inspiration for others to follow the truth...
my dad never believed in paperwork nor contracts he "did deals" by a handshake and a "look in the eye" ...from that handshake and the eye contact he made his decision on trustworthiness of the parties...
when we ALL meet up one day....the hands will be held....the hugs will be made.....and the "eyes will confirm the trust'..
AND ALL THOSE MACTAVISH PRESENT WILL FEEL THE "TRUE' BOND OF FAMILY REUNITED...AND THE GOODWILL THAT EXISTS......and shed tears for the generations of separation that should never have happened...
"WELCOME HOME",,,MACTAVISH......
and.....ive NEVER agreed with clan mactavish present approach under edward dugalds helm that a person is not a mactavish clan member UNLESS they pay an anual fee...????....where did that come from....??? ..
im sorry ...if you have the name mactavish or a blood tie to that name YOU ARE A CLAN member....if you decide to pay fees etc that is your chice BUT the fees dont decide your enrollment to our clan...YOUR BIRTH DOES...AND YOUR BIRTH ATTACHES YOU TO YOUR GLORIOUS HISTORY.....THAT IS IT....

[REALMACTAVISH]

this is beginning to feel like a real clan again.my compliments to all of you. letsget rid of the muppets with strange sirnames and no credentials. just back from dunardry a few hours ago. i walked in my kilt with bare feet and chested- it was 90 degrees! through the grass and paths our ancestorswalked. it makes you feel close to them. they are watching us and are proud of you all.

[cathy]

I envy you and Rhona, both living in Scotland. And 90 degrees! I did not think that Scotland could get that warm! Thank you so much for your continued posts and your insight into "home".


Cathy

[Truth Seeker]

Oh my.....that WAS nice. I've contributed absolutely nothing, and I'm a Thompson to boot......but I love the passion of this place! And I want to be in the "meet and greet!"

T.S.

[REALMACTAVISH]

TRUTH SEEKER- YOU SAY YOURE A THOMPSON AS THOUGH ITS A LESSER THING.DONT. YOURE A MACTAVISH ANDHOLD YOUR HEAD HIGH

[cathy]

To you all, the lovers of truth and justice! I am proud to call you all family, this is what being part of a clan is all about!

Catherine McTavish

[REALMACTAVISH]

HERES A COUPLE OF EXPRESSIONS THAT REFLECT HUMAN NATURE IN TIMES PAST AND THE PSYCHOLOGY OF HIGHLANDERS
'IF YOU KICK ONE OF MY KIN; WE ALL LIMP'
' I WILL EAT ONLY AFTER MY FAMILY AND GUESTS HAVE EATEN THEIR FILL'